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I figured we might as well have a new topic for discussing the Israel war. This conflict has been going on my whole life and yet, any kind of agreeable solution has eluded all the best efforts of so many diplomats and leaders over all these so many decades. It seems that the situation only keeps getting worse and opposing positions become more intractable.

I think to have any reasonable part in this discussion I need to review the parts of how this is all developed

Above everything else I've to say - shame on us [humans] to have yet another escalation which costs live and drains energy / resources away which could be used to solve the real problems we are facing.

Pretty much fits in the Russian war thread since it's just another part of Putins new world order.

Russian hackers are apparently currently trying to hack/disrupt Israel.

Taliban might be joining the action.

Arab league already started talks with Russia.

https://www.reuters.com/world/arab-leag ... 023-10-08/

US has deployed naval forces and have given a warning to other countries not to attack Israel.

It seems likely that this attack was meant to encourage/shape future events and can't really be viewed on it's own.

Hamas killing, raping, torturing and holding hostage foreigners and others firmly puts them on my bad side. Parading around their dead bodies was pretty low also. Most of the civilians seem to be involved. It's like a lighter version of the Ukraine invasion.

Due to the number of foreigners killed, etc... other countries might have reason to intervene?

With Iran recently making improved nuclear material due to Russia trading technical knowledge with them and Iran stopping a reactor to make more nuclear weapon material recently Iran might be a nuclear threat to Israel due to Russia's actions.

Also looks like other countries don't want the Palestinian refugees due to their history of causing notable trouble like trying to overthrow local governments. Might be caused by various reasons. There's no real place for them to go. Iran was brought up as an option but likely won't take them despite "supporting" them.

I have no idea what Hamas hoped to achieve through this surprise attack. They hope for the destruction of the state of Israel, but they do not have the resources for that. Do they think that they will be able to draw in other nations, such as Iran or Syria, into a war against Israel? Is there any scenario in which the existence of the state of Israel actually is threatened?

So what is Israel to do given the situation? Any retaliation they take will simply increase the animosity of their Arab neighbors.

There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides of this conflict. I don't know what it will take to achieve peace in the region. There would need to be a healthy dose of forgiveness coming from both sides for there to be any resolution to this conflict.

Don't count on any fervently religious groups to practice forgiveness.

fiksal wrote: ↑

Mon, 9. Oct 23, 02:05

I think to have any reasonable part in this discussion I need to review the parts of how this is all developed

I agree. I'd also like to know how much Russia and Iran helped, though they'd probably say "we just gave them weapons".

Far more interesting in my opinion is the fact that an operation of that magnitute could go under the radar of Israels secret service? Well, at least those mass demonstrations against the gouvernment that were going on for month seem to have stopped now.

The chain dog has bitten its master again, now he is being beaten until he remains in his hut bleeding, and the chain is being made shorter, again.

Israel reminds me more and more of Russia, and Hamas of unhuman losers.

PS: When you watch Bibis face, you know exactly that he was aware of an attack. Now he can slaughter his enemy without mercy. And no water, electricity and gas for Gaza.....

At this point the question is, how long will Israel spend bombing the Gaza Strip before sending in the ground troops?

First objective will be securing the southern end that borders Egypt so that the strip is completely encircled.

Egypt says it warned Israel three days before the attack.

Israel said that is a lie.

Now the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the American House of Representatives, Michael McCaul, says Egypt warned Israel.

So who is lying here? Egypt and America or Israel?

And of course Hamas is to blame for this atrocious and inhumane attack, but Israel's initial response was uncharacteristically inapt.

Edit: And no, I am not trying to allude to some conspiracy that the reaction was this slow on purpose, it seems more like somewhere, someone ****** up majorly in relaying a warning. Otherwise, it does not make a lot of sense to me that America would back Egypt's claim if they simply made it up.

Edit 2: Also Michael McCaul is staunchly pro Israel and even introduced a bipartisan resolution in support of Israel, so it would be very out of character for him to say something like that just to harm Israel.

How would Egypt know what Israel didn't? And for that matter, how would America know that Egypt warned Israel?

So Hamas moved all those weapons, coordinated the attacks and Israel never knew about it... who knew that Hamas was capable of such a sophisticated operation? Not to sound conspiratorial but I still believe that Russia or Iran had a hand in this, the idea that Hamas defeated Israeli intelligence seems a bit much.

One month ago, Israel was rocked by thousands of people demonstrating nation wide against Netanyahu's efforts to curb the Supreme Court's powers. Many said Netanyahu's move would be the end of Democracy in Israel. Also, keep in mind, Netanyahu is also on trial for corruption charges.

With that backdrop, it is possible that the Israeli government was preoccupied and missed intelligence regarding the Hamas uprising that we are seeing now. It might also be, that Netenyahu was aware of Hamas plans, but decided to let them play their course, because then he would have the perfect opportunity to order the "final solution" to the Palestinian problem. Far-fetched?

notaterran wrote: ↑

Thu, 12. Oct 23, 02:57

Not to sound conspiratorial but I still believe that Russia or Iran had a hand in this, the idea that Hamas defeated Israeli intelligence seems a bit much.

It doesnt appear we have concrete anything. But. It does appear we know something. We know that Russia said it supports Iran, we know it didnt condemn Hamas.

So there you go. We are inching closer to answering the question in the Ukranian thread - about whether or not Russian plans for the empire and destruction of free nations stretches beyond just Ukraine.

Observe wrote: ↑

Thu, 12. Oct 23, 04:22

With that backdrop, it is possible that the Israeli government was preoccupied and missed intelligence regarding the Hamas uprising that we are seeing now. It might also be, that Netenyahu was aware of Hamas plans, but decided to let them play their course, because then he would have the perfect opportunity to order the "final solution" to the Palestinian problem. Far-fetched?

That last bit is a bit of a hard secret to keep in any country that isnt an absolute dictatorship. Is Israel one?

fiksal wrote: ↑

Thu, 12. Oct 23, 04:25

That last bit is a bit of a hard secret to keep in any country that isnt an absolute dictatorship. Is Israel one?

By some accounts, they have been becoming one. Be that as it may. There were also reports last month that some in the Israel military were saying they would not report for duty, in protest of Netenyahu attempts to control the courts. Perhaps bad morale and dereliction of duty, lead to an intelligence breakdown and Hamas took advantage of that.

Observe wrote: ↑

Thu, 12. Oct 23, 04:33

fiksal wrote: ↑

Thu, 12. Oct 23, 04:25

That last bit is a bit of a hard secret to keep in any country that isnt an absolute dictatorship. Is Israel one?

By some accounts, they have been becoming one. Be that as it may. There were also reports last month that some in the Israel military were saying they would not report for duty, in protest of Netenyahu attempts to control the courts. Perhaps bad moral and dereliction of duty, lead to an intelligence breakdown and Hamas took advantage of that.

if to use a simplest explanation rule, that one I think fits. Lets see if history will prove this right or wrong I suppose.

Here is a fairly short, succinct and balanced summary of the conditions leading up to the current situation: Israelis and Palestinians are facing their moment of greatest danger since 1948 from historian Yuval Harari.

One things seems clear (to me) is that Hamas must be removed from governing of Gaza - which probably means a land assault into Gaza and increased carnage until that is accomplished. Any evolution of peace in the region cannot succeed as long as there are those bent on the destruction of Israel. For that matter, religious zealots on both sides, need to be removed from the equation when it comes to establishing policy.

Israel can take its time building up its ground forces prior to moving in, while carrying out airstrike after airstrike.

It's difficult for me to root for any side in this conflict. While I don't support the actions of Hamas and believe Israel has both a right to exist and a right to defend itself, I also feel that the Palestinians have legitimate complaints about their treatment by Israelis. I don't know what the Israeli response should be, but I feel that a heavy handed, overly punitive response will hurt Israel, very badly, in the long run.

If either side could actually find it in their hearts to forgive as their respective religions teach, there might be a chance for peaceful coexistence. But I think in the short term, the desire for revenge, from both sides, will simply lead to an escalation of violence.