Java

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 16:48

I was thinking of working on a java game as a long term project.

Anyone got any experience with this? Tips? Information?

What are the limitations when it comes to, say, 3D objects and graphics?

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 17:04

Snap! Well, I'm also considering writing a game, Java is an option, if I want it to be a smartphone game.

Java is well suited to game development, provided you aren't thinking in terms of something like an fps. There's no real issue with models, except for that you'd face with any language, this being the actual creation of the models themselves.

However I would suggest that you consider C++ instead. It would give better performance, and you would still be using a scripting language, such as LUA or Python, to write most of the actual game content. If you know Java then C++ isn't much different.

You know what's weird? I've been thinking of posting on the very subject of writing a game for a day or two. In my case it's because I want to start my own company, and I'm thinking a game would be a good start.

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 17:09

Define FPS though. What I was going to try as a first test run was effectively a very simplified version of X3s combat engine, but I just have no idea where to start when it comes to deciding what to do it it.

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 17:17

EmperorJon wrote:Define FPS though. What I was going to try as a first test run was effectively a very simplified version of X3s combat engine, but I just have no idea where to start when it comes to deciding what to do it it.

What I meant was that anything which is going to be graphically taxing, like something with a strong 3D componant, would be a bad idea in Java, since it's all interpreted. You need a core of high speed functionality that will run directly on the processor, being called by a higher level scripting language.

When it comes to X3 style, Java is a bad move. In fact even the STL in C++ would be a bad move (that sucks for performance).

It might be a good idea to start by using something like the Unreal Development Kit, or the Steam engine. However, writing something from scratch, while hard, would mean no royalties to pay. Or you could use some of the open source componants that are out there to shave some development time off.

There are lots of books on Amazon on this very subject. I suggest you take a look at them linky

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 17:24

Hm ok, though I'd rather be in a position where I can sell it later without worrying about any possible legal difficulties by using someones engine... I don't know all the rules on using free source stuff you see.

Tracker001 · Post by **Tracker001** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 17:53

Any legal responsabilty on your part will vary from "Engine" developer to "Emgine" developer.
You have to reading the legal documintation is part of the research that is requierd .

Example : The Engine that is posted here as a "Free Engine" is indeed free to use . You can develop a game and give it away or allow free to use gamw. You can also make up to an "X" amount before the "Engine" Developer would like to see some money's back to them .

I think if you were able to sell a game with thier engine for $100,000 ,they would like a payment of $5,000. But if you were able to sell the same game for $20,000 the engine dev's don't expect any payment to them. They state they allow you to make some money with thier engine so the new "have no backers " developer can get thier feet under themselfs financelly.

{The above is off the top of my pea brain}
Fact is not all legal documents are created equal . There is no standard .

Edit : This on is the one I'm talking about . http://www.udk.com/licensing

Don't know if it can work with java or not.

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 17:54

EmperorJon wrote:Hm ok, though I'd rather be in a position where I can sell it later without worrying about any possible legal difficulties by using someones engine... I don't know all the rules on using free source stuff you see.

You will need to read up on the various licences, but most game related free stuff is licenced to allow commercial use. World of Goo used a lot of open source code, you should look into that.

On the other hand, if you want to write everything from scratch then you will either have to make it a very small project, or expect to be developing it for a long time.

Also, game development is one of the most mathematically intensive areas of programming, so you will need to be good at that.

I'm not trying to put you off, I'm just pointing out that writing a non trivial game is no easy task.

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 17:56

Well I will be making it for a long time anyway!

Yeah, I'll check out some of the engines out there... I'm thinking of more ideas too.

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 18:00

EmperorJon wrote:Well I will be making it for a long time anyway!

Yeah, I'll check out some of the engines out there... I'm thinking of more ideas too.

You might want to take a look at my own code linky. It's Apache Public Linced, so you can take any bits you want.

It isn't a game physics engine, it's a proper physics simulator for modelling the solar system, spacecraft and the like, but it will have some bits you could make use of. Plus the actual physics portion is parallel, so it would make use of multiple cores.

Might help get you started at least.

Zileene · Post by **Zileene** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 18:01

Directly from The Licensing page for the Unreal Developer Kit:

UDK License wrote:...If you are creating a game or commercial application using UDK for sale or distribution to an end-user or client, or if you are providing services in connection with a game or application, the per-seat option does not apply. Instead the license terms for this arrangement are US $99 (Ninety Nine US Dollars) up-front, and a 0% royalty on you or your company's first $5,000 (US) in UDK related revenue, and a 25% royalty on UDK related revenue above $5,000 (US)....

That should clear it up.

Good place to start, it seems...

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Fri, 29. Oct 10, 18:05

Zikco wrote:Directly from The Licensing page for the Unreal Developer Kit:
UDK License wrote:...If you are creating a game or commercial application using UDK for sale or distribution to an end-user or client, or if you are providing services in connection with a game or application, the per-seat option does not apply. Instead the license terms for this arrangement are US $99 (Ninety Nine US Dollars) up-front, and a 0% royalty on you or your company's first $5,000 (US) in UDK related revenue, and a 25% royalty on UDK related revenue above $5,000 (US)....
That should clear it up.

Good place to start, it seems...

I'm currently playing around with it myself, it's amazingly complete. In fact I posted about it the other day.

[SOLAR]INFERNO · Post by **[SOLAR]INFERNO** » Sat, 30. Oct 10, 21:08

How would the original X game cope? IIRC I saw a phone with a 1.x ghz processor in it. Although I suppose it would depend on the GPU as well...

Galaxy613 · Post by **Galaxy613** » Sun, 31. Oct 10, 19:56

The only problem I really foresee about using UDK and other engines is that they are very built for FPS's, and as such can rely on very limited map sizes that may not give you enough space for a space combat game. Nevermind their addiction to gravity and up/down.

As for using Java, you should check out Javagaming.org and search around for topics about using 3D in Java. I know Notch uses Java for Minecraft, but I am pretty sure he is using a very low-level personal engine that is close to OpenGL and not a publicly available engine.

By X3 like, do you mean graphics, gameplay, or both? You could replicate X3's combat with even simple graphics which Java should be able to handle. Again, please check javagaming.org and see what people who actually use Java for game making say about this issue. Prehaps there's a Java-based 3D engine out there that is perfect for you to use.

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Sun, 31. Oct 10, 20:13

Effectively a basic graphic TC Combat Engine skirmish game, possibly multiplayer if I really get into it. So no need for IS and OS, gates, or background tasking for other stuff really far away, just a space cube area with ships.

The only difference would be it would be how X3 combat should have been, and would have been if there wasn't so much other stuff to do. Destroyable parts, catching fire, chance of decompression when shields are hit etc.

Thanks for the link.

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Sat, 6. Nov 10, 10:27

Ok, I've decided on a project I may try. Not neccesarily in Java though...

I was thinking a cross with flash games like Motherlode (Mining platformer) cross with Dwarf Fortress general ideas (Rocks, Dwarves, etc.) and Transformice multiplayer and object building!

It'll be hard... especially as I'd be most comfortable doing it in flash, for example.

I don't have flash.

Hm.

Want to see some graphics anyway?

Diamonddragon · Post by **Diamonddragon** » Sat, 6. Nov 10, 10:42

In Flash? Isn't Flash one of the worst choices if you want something complex, because it stresses the CPU very much for literally not much eye candy?

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Sat, 6. Nov 10, 10:52

It's not too complex, anyway you come up with a better idea and I'll happily accept. I'm not buying flash.

Do you like Urist McProtoype? I do.

[ external image ]

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Sat, 6. Nov 10, 12:16

Silverlight? You won't have to pay to get an IDE, you can use visual studio 2010 express.

http://www.silverlight.net/getstarted/

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/d ... 7c2604a139

It's got a number of advantages over actionscript as a language.

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Sat, 6. Nov 10, 12:25

Hmm... silverlight...? I've got Visual Basic so I'm acquainted with Visual Studio Express 2010.

Never thought of using silverlight before. I'd much rather make it flash or java or something. Actually, I just want to try java I think.

There are many things which I would need to complete my project in mind when it comes to UI, graphical ability, and some other things.

I'd need to have an entire map made of small destructable blocks, I'd need to be able overlay various graphics, such as cracks, blood smears etc. on said blocks, (rather DFesque) and I'd need to be able to calculate combat in an also rather DFesque way, involving detecting where the attack has struck (head, body, which side), involving a basic physics engine (falls, momentum, ranged projectiles inc. people heads flying off

) and lots of different player stats and inventory info to remember and such.

Oh, and it was going to be based as WASD movement with the head pivoting to look where the mouse is, and the body swapping from facing left to right. So I need to be able to make all the sprites parts move. I've drawn one of my classic silly paint images I'll post if you wnat more info.

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Sat, 6. Nov 10, 12:40

EmperorJon wrote:Hmm... silverlight...? I've got Visual Basic so I'm acquainted with Visual Studio Express 2010. Never thought of using silverlight before. I'd much rather make it flash or java or something. Actually, I just want to try java I think. There are many things which I would need to complete my project in mind when it comes to UI, graphical ability, and some other things.

I'd need to have an entire map made of small destructable blocks, I'd need to be able overlay various graphics, such as cracks, blood smears etc. on said blocks, (rather DFesque) and I'd need to be able to calculate combat in an also rather DFesque way, involving detecting where the attack has struck (head, body, which side), involving a basic physics engine (falls, momentum, ranged projectiles inc. people heads flying off ) and lots of different player stats and inventory info to remember and such.

Oh, and it was going to be based as WASD movement with the head pivoting to look where the mouse is, and the body swapping from facing left to right. So I need to be able to make all the sprites parts move. I've drawn one of my classic silly paint images I'll post if you wnat more info.

Java is great for browser based games, much better for that then anything else, like flash/actionscript or silverlight. If you write the game as a java plugin then you get access to a wealth of java game/graphics libraries.

There's a book on java games programming from o-reilly that's available free online as well as print version linky

And lots of other resources online.

As for flash/actionsript? I've had to use it in the past. It's horrifically badly designed as a language, and even if there are no errors in your code, there can still be problems because of the way the flash runtime works that will require all sorts of ugly hacks to work around.

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