OK modders, scripters, and hackers the guantlet lays before you

The place to discuss scripting and game modifications for X³: Reunion.

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rustybucket
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OK modders, scripters, and hackers the guantlet lays before you

Post by rustybucket » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 05:49

The biggest issue we had with X2 was figuring out how to hack the system to enable a greater number of ship models. For months we were stuck the original 30 some odd ships and new models could only be added by replacing the ships in the original slots. With X3 we are already beyond that point. The challenge now is to figure out how to cheat the system to enable a model to carry more then the standard 6 turrets and front guns. The limitation become especially annoying when we start playing with some of these massive M0 ships.

We can add many guns and firing points but the basic aiming mechanism will still default to 6+fwd guns. That limit is hard coded into the programming. So how do we trick the system into creating a more realistic illusion of ships with dozens of independently managed turrets?

One possibility that comes to mind is to create several shadows of the basic ships model. So that a "ship" within the game actually consists of multiple layers of identical shells overlayed one over the other in exactly the same position. Each shell would be provisioned with up 6+1 turrets, a launch bays and missile stock; creating the illusion of a single ship that can fire targeted missles by barrage, that can dock or launch from multiple hangers, or which is capable of mounting a large number of turrets.

Only one of the shells would be solid. The rest would simply mount additional equipment, and damage to these would be set by script to reflect the damage for the solid model. To the mechanics of the game it would look as though you have several independent ships firing from very close proximity (identical). They all turn as one; they are all positioned at the same point; they all yaw and pitch from the same center point. The mathematics would be just an identity; whatever the solid ship does is exactly what the shadow ships do (all at the same time, all at the same place). They all have the same xyz coordinate and the same orientation.

If you build a model of a ship using 3 shadows, your game map would show all 4 ships (say Argon M0 Main, Argon M0 port hanger, Argon M0 starboard hanger, Argon M0 bottom) at exactly the same spot. You can select one to obtain landing permission, or to provision some of the hardware (like missles); but; only the main section would carry a repairable hull, drives, and provisional shield values. The rest would be scripted to mirror the condition of the main hull (remember they all occupy the same physical space).

Perhaps by doing this we could end up with something behaives like an M0. The example above could have:

1) 4 independent hangers so you would launch 4 fighters at the same time in four different directions.
2) 4 missile launching at the same time from 4 different points all targeted on the same unsuspecting victim- and you can define which missile type to ready for each bay
3) One main battery and up to 24 self aiming turrets. You could program each of these turrets as you prefer.

I suggested something like this for X2 a while back; but, at the time we had envisioned a segmented ship where each body part represented a solid section that had to be flown in a tightly coordinated dance with the main body. The problem with managing such a delicate dance of parts within the x2 environmet was impossible. This approach simplifies the original strategy by simply using one solid body with identical shadows. Since all the bits occupy the same space the management problem becomes much simpler. Turrets 8-24 may seem like they are hanging off the same ship, but it is all an illusion, and I won't tell anyone if you don't. :P

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Observe
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Post by Observe » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 07:41

Nice try Rustybucket, but you cannot have mutiple ships occupying the same space - they will annialate each other kind of like matter and anti-matter. You will wind up with a single probably rather damaged ship. Your idea could work IF each ship "section" was so close as not to be visibly seperated, and IF no ship ever moved - in which case we don't really have a ship at all. :cry:

Armegeddon
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Post by Armegeddon » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 08:23

Technically you could actually, if each individual ship model only contains a part of the total ship. Like one ship is the left wing, another is the right wing, another is the main body, another is the tail, etc. If designed correctly they should be able to sit in very close proximity to each other without touching. The problem is that there is no way to make all those different ships move exactly the same amount in all directions at the same speed and angle. The autopilot would immediately try to move them apart since it would sense a collision and that prevents the illusion of a single ship. And because the script engine can only run one task at a time, even though it appears that there are multiple ones running simultaneously, there would be a slight time discrepency between script controls to move the ships, which would just get larger as time goes on. I expect each ship would fly away from the others, or collide with other parts within about 2 seconds.
As for having it as a player controlled ship, forget it. There is no way that the player can directly control more than one ship at a time.
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Cycrow
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Post by Cycrow » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 12:51

yyou will also get a problem with OOS combat, as they will be treated as individual ships, and would then seem far less powerful than they actually are

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Red Spot
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Post by Red Spot » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 17:43

ok just took an hour to read this ....:D

anyway my 2 cents .. 'there is absolutelly no point in making this' ..


1) you can launch as many fighters at once as your carrier has launchbays .. in sector launching in nowhere near as problematic as it was in X2 with in only 1 launchbay ..

2)have you tried having 2 ships near each other fire a miss. at the same target ...
if so you would have found out that most of the time these miss. will take each other out .. result; expensive fireworks ..:D

3)wont help you .. as it is one thing that makes turrets less capable is the fact that there is no 'communication' between the turrets .. more individual turrets would only make it worse ..
(if its the fact that large ships have 'blind spots' .. good reason to give fighter-escorts ..)



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HellToupee
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Post by HellToupee » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 18:14

well individual turrets are better because they can engage more ships, in a large fight eg fighters attacking most of ur guns will only track and fire at a single enemy, with no intelligent targeting only changing targets when its lost or destoryed.

Also u cannot have multiple weapon types in each turrent group as it dosnt work, eg if u group ppcs and ppes the ppes will also fire at targets well out of range, so each side of ur ship generally can only contain a singular type of weapon, also less effective.

rustybucket
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Post by rustybucket » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 18:52

Red Spot wrote:ok just took an hour to read this ....:D

anyway my 2 cents .. 'there is absolutelly no point in making this' ..


1) you can launch as many fighters at once as your carrier has launchbays .. in sector launching in nowhere near as problematic as it was in X2 with in only 1 launchbay ..

2)have you tried having 2 ships near each other fire a miss. at the same target ...
if so you would have found out that most of the time these miss. will take each other out .. result; expensive fireworks ..:D

3)wont help you .. as it is one thing that makes turrets less capable is the fact that there is no 'communication' between the turrets .. more individual turrets would only make it worse ..
(if its the fact that large ships have 'blind spots' .. good reason to give fighter-escorts ..)

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1) It's worth it for the cool factor. It is also easier to give instructions to all of your docked ships when they live in independent hangers.

2) Usually with multiple missiles the ship tries to avoid one only to fly into the path of another. I don't see where creating a simultaneous multi- missile launch would be a problem, especially if the missile launch from different points along the ship. Launch fore and aft missiles from a titan and they would already have nearly a kilometer in separation.

3) There would be communication between the turrets since they would be set up as batteries. Shadow ship 1 for instance may have all of its turrets set up to fire to port, Shadow ship 2 to starboard, and so on. A khaak wave comes in from the port and you have six coordinated turrets firing on them, as they pass to starboard they leave the field of fire for the first battery and are fired on by the six turrets on the other side. There is no need to coordinate the gun fire between port and starboard.

DesertEagle
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ah, framerate...

Post by DesertEagle » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 19:05

I like the idea, but with all the turrets aiming, I think the framerate would take a major hit. It's already bad with a carrier and destroyer in an asteroid filled system. And I have a 4800 X2 with a 1900 XT and 2 gbs of RAM...

rustybucket
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Re: ah, framerate...

Post by rustybucket » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 19:13

DesertEagle wrote:I like the idea, but with all the turrets aiming, I think the framerate would take a major hit. It's already bad with a carrier and destroyer in an asteroid filled system. And I have a 4800 X2 with a 1900 XT and 2 gbs of RAM...
It should be easier then having 4 M2s in a sector. The shadow ships are not manuvering or consuming AP resources. They are just scripetd to exist where ever the main hull happens to be.

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Red Spot
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Post by Red Spot » Wed, 26. Apr 06, 21:43

rustybucket wrote:1) It's worth it for the cool factor. It is also easier to give instructions to all of your docked ships when they live in independent hangers.

2) Usually with multiple missiles the ship tries to avoid one only to fly into the path of another. I don't see where creating a simultaneous multi- missile launch would be a problem, especially if the missile launch from different points along the ship. Launch fore and aft missiles from a titan and they would already have nearly a kilometer in separation.

3) There would be communication between the turrets since they would be set up as batteries. Shadow ship 1 for instance may have all of its turrets set up to fire to port, Shadow ship 2 to starboard, and so on. A khaak wave comes in from the port and you have six coordinated turrets firing on them, as they pass to starboard they leave the field of fire for the first battery and are fired on by the six turrets on the other side. There is no need to coordinate the gun fire between port and starboard.

what I'm trying to point out is that its easier to change some parameters on some models and build some scripts than that what you are suggesting (wich isnt possible afaik)

1)the 'cool factor' is already there .. having 4 launchbays on 4 diff 'entities' is imo the same as having 4 launchbays on diff. positions of the ship
launching only makes it harder with 4 diff. bays to launch from (launching all 4 bays means giving the same order 4 times ...)
(also think about cargobay etc .. how should this be handled .. 4 diff. cargobays?? .. would get rather annoying to get a ship equiped.. and if not .. how to equip the fighters..)

2)firing miss. has nothing to do with avoiding them ..
like I said; miss will kill each other ..
now it might work as you the player is firing miss. but the AI has no way of being sure that the enemy is lined up for a 'multi miss. attack' ..
next to that an enemy isnt going to sit still cause you fired more than 1 miss. and it wouldnt want your miss. to hit each other ..;)
(to use your example; you fire when the ship is in front of you .. but the ist miss. overshoots the target .. turns around to only 'by mistake' run into the other miss.)

3)specially the way you say it it will need communication with other turrets ..
example; 2 KM2s on port .. 2 turrets fire at the 1st the other 2 at the 2th ..cause there is no communication .......
end result; your ship blows before even damaging 1 of the enemy ships ...


but hey .. this is just 'advice' .. dont let me hold you back ...;)

Edit;
when thinking about your ideas ..
1 thing I would find really cool to see (but afaik is also imposs.)
a 'capital cluster'
see a huge a*s cluster warp in .. breaking up into [x] M2s ...
(would you run ..?? .. I would (me in general being in a Buster V.) ....:D)



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