New Sectors&New Ships Thread

[rustybucket]

2 rusty

I think, you should know - what you can not do in game:
1)multyple launching from one scene-model(if this scene consist of two m1s - anyway they`ll migth have only one launching body).
2)you can not target to subsystem on ship - like target on engines. You can not limit ship speed by script to less than 1 M\s
- I think, this functions of game engine - can not be changed in .obj. For this - you need to change the implementation of functions - and recompile game exe.

In perspective - we`ll can to define our completely new class of ships - this info stored in .obj files. But for this - we must know, how to define docking avaibility for this new class. We dont know yet.

On the points:

multyple launching from one scene-model(if this scene consist of two m1s - anyway they`ll migth have only one launching body).

What if this thing is actually composed of two scene models flying very closely together so as to appear as one scene model?

you can not target to subsystem on ship - like target on engines.

True. What I am suggesting is that we use a ship (the TL in the example above) as the "engine". The system can target that TL as an individual ship [it just happens to be named "MO's Engine Room"]; and we may be able to script the engines on the other ships (MO components) to simulate the loss of the TL "engine" (by reducing engine tunings on each ship component).

If we can build an M0 from a collection of game recognized parts; then we will have the ability to target and define each of those parts. The bridge (M6 in the example above) would have extra scripts features installed to enable a subset of MO commands [similar to what was done with AEGIS]. Give the instruction to launch a particular fighter (irrespective of which carrier it is current in) and it appears to launch from either carrier 1, or carrier 2; instruct it to land, and it appears to land in either carrier 3 or carrier 4.

It is all smoke and mirrors in order to allow a ship to exist which the game is otherwise not hard programmed to support. Perhaps the actual fighter in carrier 3 does a jump to an off-line secret sector where it is instantly destroyed by the mother of all HENs while an identical fighter is spawned in front of carrier 1 to emmulate the launch? But, for our purposes it appears to land on the section of the ship encompassed by carrier 3, and then later launches from another section encompassed by carrier 1.

[rustybucket]

the later part, with the multiple ships... that's an interesting idea. i could even see it working, sort of. i mean, with a few trig calculations you could make the pieces all stick together.

Is is possible to define a ship to exist at a fixed point relative to another given point? Could we define a core value; such as ship "reactor core", and then set each component (the other ships) to spawn (exist) within a fixed x,y,z distance from "reactor core". Then the actual motion of the MO would depend on the motion of the core ship, and the position of the other ships would be relative to that. As you turn the M0 you are actually turning the core ship, and all the other ships move in relation to the core ship.

[milling_hordesman]

yes, that's exactly what i was thinking. i can do most of the calculations to keep the pieces together except for the ship's roll. i still can't wrap my head around how that offsets thee adjoining positions

[rustybucket]

i can do most of the calculations to keep the pieces together except for the ship's roll. i still can't wrap my head around how that offsets thee adjoining positions

The motion is an arc radius.

Here is a refresher:
http://www.themathpage.com/aTrig/arc-length.htm

[milling_hordesman]

yes, it is, but that's won't help me place a point in (what system is it called again) space. i know it's not cylndrical or spherical... cubic space! or something. it won't help me actually calculate the coordinates of the point at the end of the arc.

[rustybucket]

Perhaps something in this thread may help:

http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtop ... light=math

[milling_hordesman]

i can do that much; it's not terribly difficult. i've got a nice system set up that drops in alpha and beta. man, by now i do that like cakework. it's the gamma rotation that gets me. and not because i just need to rotate an object, but because i have an object set up at some random point to my left or right (not just directly in front of me like the asteriod in the example), and i need to calculate where to reposition it based on my roll, taking into account my pitch and yaw. that part is not covered in that thread, which i have read before.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

He neglected to also say that the calculations aren't happening reletive to him, but to the center of the sector. That's the problem.

If they were reletive to the object in question (your ship) This would be a cakewalk.

[Galaxy613]

*sigh*... if only my friend included parented entitys into his 3D engine I could help with this idea....

[rustybucket]

He neglected to also say that the calculations aren't happening reletive to him, but to the center of the sector. That's the problem.

I just wanted to step back a moment, to understand what it is that we would need to calculate. If the position of every object in the universe is determined by an X,Y,and Z location coordinate, and a H (heading) and E (elevation) orientation. Is it possible to get these 5 variables for any existing object? If so, wouldn't the location object that we want to create be represented as X-xDelta,Y-yDelta, Z-zDelta, H,E; where X,Y,Z,H,E are the location of the core scene component, and xDelta, yDelta, zDelta is the orientation of the second scene component relative to the core? The location of the second scene model is fixed - it is literally bolted onto the first model, and whatever that relationship is will not change as the core model moves through space.

[Galaxy613]

Elevation? ELEVATION? We like to call Elevation in the Game-Making commuitty something called the "Y" of the entity. And heading will have to be split into two varaibles, Pitch and Yaw. And you CANNOT forget the Roll of the object.

[Tsar_of_Cows]

I now declare it law that a modder must make a playable Khaak M0 with weapons and shields....

[rustybucket]

Elevation? ELEVATION? We like to call Elevation in the Game-Making commuitty something called the "Y" of the entity. And heading will have to be split into two varaibles, Pitch and Yaw. And you CANNOT forget the Roll of the object.

Thanks, I did forget about the roll; but, how does X2 normally define roll, pitch, and yaw? Are we trying to say, find point 0,0,0 of object A and position this object 20 M above relative to that point, or do we actually have to define the three arcs and position and orient the object?

[milling_hordesman]

we need to define:

X, Y, Z coords (l/r, u/d, f/r)
Alpha, Beta, Gamma rotations (yaw, pitch, roll)

but that's not quite the issue. the issue is how do you then translate that to an object that's supposed to always appear just to the left of that moving/rotating object? i can do everything except account for the roll, which while not impossible is more annoying of a problem than i care to tackle.

[rustybucket]

while not impossible is more annoying of a problem than i care to tackle.

The game has a built in mechanism to align the various objects. Ships passing through a jump gate appear at the other end in alignment with the horizontal plain of the sector, and docking ships can align with the docking bays. Each of these objects clearly has a point which the game reads as upright, and that plus the X,Y,Z cords is what we should use to align the various bits. Just as the game aligns ships with the horizontal plain perhaps the new bits can be aligned with the core objects horizontal plain?

BTW, isn't roll just an Alpha, Beta rotation in a different direction?

[milling_hordesman]

nope, that's what is meant by "not relative". we cannot dynamically position an object relative to some other object's axis; we must calculate it's position and rotation based on the sector coordinates. that's why i can calculate any 2 of the rotations (A and B, B and G, A and G) but i haven't worked up the nerve to figure out the third rotation yet. yes, yes, by itself gamma is not difficult at all; it's when you have to take into account the other 2 axis of rotation that my brain decides to quit.

[rustybucket]

that's why i can calculate any 2 of the rotations (A and B, B and G, A and G) but i haven't worked up the nerve to figure out the third rotation yet.

If the math calculation is complicated enough, the built in rounding error will give the ship a very short lifespan.

Perhaps we can approach this from a different direction, and build our MO so that the components beyond the core are not subject to pitch, roll, or yaw. Something like this Deep Space Nine station, but with a core bridge that is free to pitch, yaw, and roll. The core would contain the engine and bridge and would spin around in all directions like a engine mounted on a three directional gymbol. But the rest of the ship scene files, housing the weapondry and launch bays, would only move in X,Y,Z directions. It is pretty worthless to rotate something this big anyway; since in space "up" is whatever direction we choose it to be in, and there is nothing to be gained by spinning this much mass around.

In a world where tractor beams, jump drives, and transporters are everywhere; there is no problem in having a core that is not physically attached to the rest of the ship (or perhaps housed in a gyroscopic enclosure). Perhaps, it might make for an emergency escape strategy where the core separates and the rest of the structure explodes.

Just imagine something shaped like this. Where each of the vertical arms is equivalent on an m2, where the belt is composed of 3-4 m1, and where the core is equivalent to a TL. That is the kind of firepower and scope that we would expect from a M0 - deathstar sized ship.

[ external image ]

[Galaxy613]

If you just said that in the first place....

How possible is that Milling Horseman? I think it'll work.

[rustybucket]

If you just said that in the first place....

...and make the outer diameter about 90% of the inner diameter of a jump gate. If you think that you are pilot enough to take this thing down the center line of the eclliptic projector, you may just make it through. Otherwise, you better hope that your creditors never find what is left of your body. Just use your jump drive; it will consume a mountain of energy cells - but your crew is far less likely to suffer a community coronary.

Something in the neighborhood of 21 quad turrets mounting GPPs, with 21 dual GHEPTs turrets, 12 dual Ion disrupter turrets (150 heavy guns), 400+ M3s , and a slew of miscellaneous ships.... and, someone will no doubt try to take one out with a Nova (spoiler- by doing a Luke Skywalker and taking out the Engine/Bridge (TL) at the core).

[milling_hordesman]

oh, that is most certainly possible. i just took a break from homework and messing with my carrier scripts. i'll think about the bod parts we could use to create this monstrosity.

rofl, come to think of it, any of those ships firing their guns could really suck for the other ships. normally, a ship is invulnerable to its own fire (the shots pass right through). what would happen here, though, if guns from the upper right noticed an enemy in the lower left? they would fire all of its massed quad lasers right into the rest of the ship. and to tell you the truth, unless you can figure that problem out before trying to make this ship, it's probably going to turn out to be a monumental catastrophy