Egosoft, Plese stick to what you are good at!

[Graaf]

So for a TLDR-version.

Rebirth pathfinding is 10x more advanced then X3's but just like X3 it still doesn't work due to 10x more complex game.

Turning OFF collision damage is to improve the system, not to hide the problem.


Sure....it's just a nice bonus effect then.

But in short: you can't show us a video with 100's of fighters attacking a Xenon capital in Rebirth with collision damage ON, to truly show the improvement on pathfinding, because in the end the effect would be the same as in X3.

TLDR: more advanced but not improved.

[Santi]

So for a TLDR-version.

Rebirth pathfinding is 10x more advanced then X3's but just like X3 it still doesn't work due to 10x more complex game.

Turning OFF collision damage is to improve the system, not to hide the problem.


Sure....it's just a nice bonus effect then.

But in short: you can't show us a video with 100's of fighters attacking a Xenon capital in Rebirth with collision damage ON, to truly show the improvement on pathfinding, because in the end the effect would be the same as in X3.

TLDR: more advanced but not improved.

I can show a video with 256 fighters attacking a Xenon I plus escorts and you can see that yes, there is some bumping and a few fighters overshooting their strafing runs, but of course not only are 256 of them, plus the Xenon compliment of Capital ships and escorts, but also they are targeting specific points of the ship like turrets and shields before going for the hull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYsjn9qbHb4&t=7s

Now you get a video where we can see 100 fighters in X3 flying in close formation without it being a lag fest and with their strafing runs being within meters of capital ships instead of being dots in the distance.

[Graaf]

So for a TLDR-version.

Rebirth pathfinding is 10x more advanced then X3's but just like X3 it still doesn't work due to 10x more complex game.

Turning OFF collision damage is to improve the system, not to hide the problem.


Sure....it's just a nice bonus effect then.

But in short: you can't show us a video with 100's of fighters attacking a Xenon capital in Rebirth with collision damage ON, to truly show the improvement on pathfinding, because in the end the effect would be the same as in X3.

TLDR: more advanced but not improved.

I can show a video with 256 fighters attacking a Xenon I plus escorts and you can see that yes, there is some bumping and a few fighters overshooting their strafing runs, but of course not only are 256 of them, plus the Xenon compliment of Capital ships and escorts, but also they are targeting specific points of the ship like turrets and shields before going for the hull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYsjn9qbHb4&t=7s

Now you get a video where we can see 100 fighters in X3 flying in close formation without it being a lag fest and with their strafing runs being within meters of capital ships instead of being dots in the distance.

@8.23: a fleet of almost 200 fighters. He just lost over 20% of his ships to basically lying.

And if I use bombers too, I don't need that many ships. And they won't get near it. TBH no point in bringing M3's at all. Or should I say: by the time the M3's arrive the ship will be gone.

[RAVEN.myst]

I get the feeling that when people here say that X3 is the better game, they are actually
talking about a Mod, not the base game.

Not always (I know, you DID say you "get the feeling" - so you're not making a hard asserti... will you please stop moving your two heads around? I'm getting dizzy ) - I, for one, think (personal opinion here) that in terms of game scope, mechanics and dynamics, as well as many many design decisions, X3 is significantly superior, and I back that up in my own terms by the fact that to this day, I can always get more long-term enjoyment out of the older game than the new one - a Rebirth game for me can only ever stretch to a maximum of two weeks, and then I'm done with the entire title for a few months - with X3, I can go longer than 2 weeks AND then I'm thinking of a different concept I want to try in a different game start, so even when I abandon a playthrough, I can stick with the game, for months on end - it simply has more staying/gripping power. But that's neither here nor there, where I was actually going is that I *only* *ever* play vanilla. So, to me, vanilla X3 is (significantly) superior to vanilla Rebirth (at least I'm comparing vanilla to vanilla - keeps it fair and meaningful - because yes, I agree that comparing modded or total-converted of one to the vanilla of the other is meaningless. ) Of course, I'm only one person, and it may well be that in some or even many cases, what you suggest is, in fact, taking place...

[Santi]

But are the old parts going to be exactly the same?

The short answer is for a majority of things that will not be the case. Take piloting Capital ships, something that we discussed a lot and is back by popular demand.

In X3 Capital ships are ship mincers, you pilot your Capital ship full of weapons with a huge shield and hull value and you pretty much wipe the floor. It gives you a sense of overpowering anything in your path that I believe it is one of the things that people like about it.

Now you have surface elements and going back to what I was discussing with Graaf, pathing is a lot better and so is the AI, so you get your huge ship full of weapons, but now you can be a sitting duck if they shoot your turrets out first. Something that they will try to do.

It will be a powerful ship, but not as powerful as before because the new engine made things possible that weren't before. So which Capitals ships will be better and more engaging for the player, X3 or X4 ones?

[Beermachine]

@Santi Those are good questions.

As pure speculation, I'd assume that the majority would be happy and prefer X4 capital ship combat over X3 (once they got used to it). Given that it's a natural evolution and advancement of the series. Leading to more in-depth strategic and tactical decision making.

A lot depends on finding the right balance (which won't be easy). Combined arms could play more of a role, with ships dedicated as anti-fighter / corvette / frigate / capital ship / etc, rather than being good vs everything. This would make late game fleet engagements much more interesting and tactically challenging like more traditional RTS games, with the added bonus of being able to jump right into the action yourself.

The quality of the AI at strategic, tactical and individual decision making will be the ultimate deciding factor.

[Graaf]

Now you have surface elements and going back to what I was discussing with Graaf, pathing is a lot better and so is the AI, so you get your huge ship full of weapons, but now you can be a sitting duck if they shoot your turrets out first. Something that they will try to do.

It will be a powerful ship, but not as powerful as before because the new engine made things possible that weren't before. So which Capitals ships will be better and more engaging for the player, X3 or X4 ones?

If I have to believe others, the AI already targeted surface elements in X3, although all we registered was overal shield and hull damage.

If X4 Capitals have surface elements with their own dedicated shields and hit-points, and no protection from the overal ship shielding, and those will be target first, then I have a feeling about what will be modded out first.
The difference between what is fun to do as the attacker, and if it would be fun as the defender. It might have worked for Rebirth, but probably doesn't for X4.



And thus far the pathing and AI are only better on paper.

[Gnorog]

@Santi:
I hope they are not the same Making successful features better is always good. Also implementing and testing new features is important.

But there is a big difference between a further improvement of a well established niche product and creating a new product to tap a bigger market.

Before XR we heared "GTA in space". We know the result.
Now with X4 we get buzzwords (to use the more polite b-word ) like "immersion", "seamless" or "ship as a level". Words you´ll find in many of Chris Roberts presentations.

So I´m quite worried if Egosoft really learned their lesson with XR or if they try (and fail) again to design a product for the mass market.
I really respect Egosoft for their work on X1-X3 and for the work they put in the XR-engine. It would be very unfortunate if some silly game design decisions would be their doom.

[Beermachine]

@Gnorog

Agree completely. It's not all doom and gloom though. It's not the 2000's anymore and more companies are realising there is a sizable market for niche games within the space genre.

If Egosoft does fully abandon doing in-depth, complex, strategic first person empire building space games for more mass market appeal, then it's virtually guaranteed that another company will step in and take over that niche market instead.

[sd_jasper]

Pages now of posts that basically break down to personal preferences and if their is data to support what a person likes. The fact is that there are some people that don't like XR for whatever reason. There are also people that do. Some might have come to the X universe through XR. And some are like me that have played since XBTF, and found XR a fresh take (and subsequently have a hard time going back to X3 after playing so much XR).

As far as X4 goes, people thinking it is too much XR2, well it probably is. ES isn't going to scrap all the work the did in XR and all the improvements that they have made to it over the years. They are adding to that, improving on it, and taking ideas from prior X games, but this is still a new iteration of XR engine and design elements.

If you are expecting ES to rebuild X3, then you're already setting yourself up for disappointment. They've said this game will not be that. If you can't deal with that, then I suggest you go find a something else to spend your time on, because at this point the horse is little more than a wet stain.

[Alan Phipps]

I have split and locked a batch of argumentative X3/XR review and statistics posts from this thread. Please remain on topic and discuss your opinions of the likely game content of X4.

[Graaf]

I have split and locked a batch of argumentative X3/XR review and statistics posts from this thread. Please remain on topic and discuss your opinions of the likely game content of X4.

Okay....

In my opinion the most likely game content of X4 will mostly be the same as Rebirths. And I don't like Rebirth's because I prefer X3's.

[astreus]

The main tricky thing here is the fact that till X3AP the main goal was to play it for a long time as an open sandbox, while XR and X4 focus (on my op.) also or even more - on short time players.

For the long time players, all eye candy will sooner or later become dull. If you have to walk after 1000 game hours in a station, you really don't recognize what you see, you just want to get the job done.
Or in X3AP you may often just 'sit' in space working on menu, giving remote commands, watching you ships (reduced to symbols) on a map, and enjoy the RESULT of a battle, if it goes as planned (that's interesting). You don't recognize any eye candies anymore.
So, mods which shorten up that walking or any time consuming graphic are welcome then.
Who like to do station walk to a dealer when you could sell or buy while sitting in your ship using the menu?

For short time payers - at the start - eye candies give an amazing 'wow' feeling. Same it does on a adv. trailer - so eye candies are very important for marketing.

So, as from sales view all that excessively graphics on XP(X4) does count, for long time playing it may be bothersome.
The solution is simply to make skip functions. Gamer's choice to save time & CPU when wanted. Hope there are enough on X4.

[Graaf]

Who like to do station walk to a dealer when you could sell or buy while sitting in your ship using the menu?

For short time payers - at the start - eye candies give an amazing 'wow' feeling. Same it does on a adv. trailer - so eye candies are very important for marketing.

But if you are a short time player, and you want to get some things done, do you wish the have a time-sink like station walking? I don't think so.

Even as a long time player of X3 I have no interest in time-sinks.

At best I would see the necessity to comm the station manager or quartermaster to make the trade after docking. That's just literally a few key presses (at least in X3) and a level of immersion added. And no need to get out of the ship.

[DAG368]

Will people be happy with the Egosoft version of X4 or will you wait until the modders make it better like for X3 AP rebalanced mod or litcubes universe?
At the moment its looking like they are making a copy of Rebirth but with the ability to fly all the ships.
Also does it mean less races means less ships than X3 and a smaller universe than X3.
When in improve a game you give more content not less!!!

[GCU Grey Area]

Who like to do station walk to a dealer when you could sell or buy while sitting in your ship using the menu?

I do - much prefer to visit a station in person than doing everything over comms. However XR's way of doing it could have been a lot better. Biggest gripe for me with regards to interacting with NPCs was their apparently random distribution inside the station. Made it unnecessarily difficult to find the right NPC. Would have been much better IMO if there had been specific locations to find particular types of NPC - e.g. if traders had their own shops, mission contacts were found in the bar, ship crews in the barracks, etc.

[MPX10L]

The quality and worth of a game is not determent by the amount of content.

[RAVEN.myst]

Biggest gripe for me with regards to interacting with NPCs was their apparently random distribution inside the station. Made it unnecessarily difficult to find the right NPC. Would have been much better IMO if there had been specific locations to find particular types of NPC - e.g. if traders had their own shops, mission contacts were found in the bar, ship crews in the barracks, etc.

I agree. I also think it's silly that starship crewmembers shuffle themselves randomly and widely across the standard platform - the space isn't huge, granted, but it still causes unnecessary hassle when docking and looking to quickly find the captain, and then maybe go change the defense officer's stance...

[RAVEN.myst]

Will people be happy with the Egosoft version of X4 or will you wait until the modders make it better like for X3 AP rebalanced mod or litcubes universe?

My crystal ball is in for repairs, so I can't see the future, but going by past experience: I have always considered the official (vanilla) releases to be the definitive versions of the games, never needing (or indeed wanting) third-party mods to "make them better" - in keeping with that, I predict the same for X4, where I'm concerned.

[DaMuncha]

I would have liked to access all those menus from one room in the station. Or on the bridge of a capital ship.