DLC? Are You Kidding Me? CONTENT PATCHES!

[Nafensoriel]

Why are you comparing X3, a 10+ years old game with X4?
You have to compare X:R with X4 at least.
And then nearly every single aspect of the game looks worse (maybe asteroids look better).


Whut? What you call a living multifactional system is in fact a "dead, empty not working system". Just read one of the plenty threads of people complaining that the economy/war does not work and is broken.
And saying that XR is a FPS compared to X4 is not true. Sure, X4 has the big and most important advantage that you can fly every ship, but XR is as much a FPS as X4.

Because X:Rebirth isnt a comparable title?
X:Rebirth is an adventure space game. It has none of the internal systems of X4. By even trying to compare the two you show an utter lack of knowledge in game design. It's on par with comparing an MMO to a single player FPS game.

You are kidding me, aren't you? And your last post proves again that you are joking.
I am playing computer games for over 30 games now and you are telling me now that I can not compare both games with each other because of "some deep inside engine" change, that has nearly zero effect to the player.
Both games have in common:

• Open world/universe

• You can build your own stations

• You can produce wares and sell them by demand

• You can trade

• You can mine asteroids

• You can order and have your own fleet

• You fly always a space ship

• Lore

• Highways

• Even the game engine seems to have the same core

The only differences are:

• Now you can fly all ships

• Complexity in ship fitting is simplified (no reactors and limitations in weapons except size)

• New map options

And you are trying to say that because of the background simulation of the economy the games are two completely differnt kinds but that is absolutely not the case. Except of broken balance and problems it has no effect to the player. I somehow doubt that you have played XR or why are you telling me that it is an Adventure??? Where is in XR the adventure part? I have built my own fleet, starbases and fought several big battles exactly like in X4, just that I had more different ships with better effects and graphics... sure I was only flying the skunk, but I could dock to any big ship and give orders while sitting on the bridge of the docked ship, so where is the difference - tell me please!? Just because XR at least HAD a short story does not make it an adventure game xD.

One example that makes it maybe a bit more clear:
Doom 2 had no real physics like we have in the new Doom game but they still are the same kind of game and indeed comparable. And Doom 2 is waaaay more different to modern Doom than XR to X4.

No, you pretty much do not understand anything about the internal workings of a video game and are judging it exclusively on what you see.
Sorry but thems the facts. 30 years gaming doesn't mean a darn thing either. Playing a game is not making a game.

All that "deep economy" stuff? Yep, it is performance intensive. X:Rebirth did not have an economy it had a simulated facade of an economy. The difference? One has a few hundred calculations every few seconds and the other has tens of thousands. Visually if you do the former right it will appear to simulate the latter. This does not mean they are the same thing. The economy is a HUGE drain on resources because at no time does the economy stop.

Rebirth? All those fleets and other nonsense? Those generally only do something when told to do something. Did you have a hundred ships? A thousand? Ten? Unless they are DOING something they don't actually spend many resources. Even if each ship uses 100 operations a second they don't hold a candle to the number of stations and transports required to generate an economy. Stations and transports that operate all the time without a care if you are there or not. Not to mention having to track each and every "ware" until its kerploded into ship construction.

There really isn't much more to say here. If you fundamentally can't grasp the difference then no amount of facts are going to change your mind. The games are not comparable. Trying to compare them is like comparing call of duty to red alert.

[Max Bain]

Because X:Rebirth isnt a comparable title?
X:Rebirth is an adventure space game. It has none of the internal systems of X4. By even trying to compare the two you show an utter lack of knowledge in game design. It's on par with comparing an MMO to a single player FPS game.

You are kidding me, aren't you? And your last post proves again that you are joking.
I am playing computer games for over 30 games now and you are telling me now that I can not compare both games with each other because of "some deep inside engine" change, that has nearly zero effect to the player.
Both games have in common:

• Open world/universe

• You can build your own stations

• You can produce wares and sell them by demand

• You can trade

• You can mine asteroids

• You can order and have your own fleet

• You fly always a space ship

• Lore

• Highways

• Even the game engine seems to have the same core

The only differences are:

• Now you can fly all ships

• Complexity in ship fitting is simplified (no reactors and limitations in weapons except size)

• New map options

And you are trying to say that because of the background simulation of the economy the games are two completely differnt kinds but that is absolutely not the case. Except of broken balance and problems it has no effect to the player. I somehow doubt that you have played XR or why are you telling me that it is an Adventure??? Where is in XR the adventure part? I have built my own fleet, starbases and fought several big battles exactly like in X4, just that I had more different ships with better effects and graphics... sure I was only flying the skunk, but I could dock to any big ship and give orders while sitting on the bridge of the docked ship, so where is the difference - tell me please!? Just because XR at least HAD a short story does not make it an adventure game xD.

One example that makes it maybe a bit more clear:
Doom 2 had no real physics like we have in the new Doom game but they still are the same kind of game and indeed comparable. And Doom 2 is waaaay more different to modern Doom than XR to X4.

No, you pretty much do not understand anything about the internal workings of a video game and are judging it exclusively on what you see.
Sorry but thems the facts. 30 years gaming doesn't mean a darn thing either. Playing a game is not making a game.

All that "deep economy" stuff? Yep, it is performance intensive. X:Rebirth did not have an economy it had a simulated facade of an economy. The difference? One has a few hundred calculations every few seconds and the other has tens of thousands. Visually if you do the former right it will appear to simulate the latter. This does not mean they are the same thing. The economy is a HUGE drain on resources because at no time does the economy stop.

Rebirth? All those fleets and other nonsense? Those generally only do something when told to do something. Did you have a hundred ships? A thousand? Ten? Unless they are DOING something they don't actually spend many resources. Even if each ship uses 100 operations a second they don't hold a candle to the number of stations and transports required to generate an economy. Stations and transports that operate all the time without a care if you are there or not. Not to mention having to track each and every "ware" until its kerploded into ship construction.

There really isn't much more to say here. If you fundamentally can't grasp the difference then no amount of facts are going to change your mind. The games are not comparable. Trying to compare them is like comparing call of duty to red alert.

Dude... we are comparing the games, not the engines! And for the game all what counts is what the player sees and interacts with. If you want compare the engines then you can not do this either because you dont see the source code and therefore all you are comparing are guesses...

[Nafensoriel]

/snipsnipity

An engine is the foundation of a game. When you compare games... you compare their engines as well. This is why you cannot compare an FPS to an RTS for example. The engines work differently in every possible capacity and have different performance metrics on what is and is not possible.

The audacity to suggest that visuals and control areas are ALL a game is composed of is just insane. It's like saying your car is only judged on its interior and the quality of the glass. Your problem is you are judging a bus and a sports car in the same class of vehicle and you really don't even fathom that there is a difference at all.

Yes, I can categorically say the engines are not comparable. The features and mechanics alone tell me they ripped up and redid entire parts of the base. Square peg and round hole syndrome are easy to see even with good old mark1 eyeballs. Hell the fact that the EXE went up damn near 8 megs might be a clue.

[Warnoise]

I hope in one of the DLC's they add khaak capital ships. Now i barely feel their presence in the universe.

[Nort The Fragrent]

Just launched X3 AP. To reenforce my memory of the game. Wow, what a beautiful sense of space, the planets look spectacular compared to X4. Accompanied with appropriate brilliant music to add that fear, wonder, dread.
X4 I am sorry to say has lost something, seems bland in comparison.
X3AP sectors discovered, 129. X4, 54 ish!!!
Foundation is appropriate, it’s just that. A good foundation to build on. And as we all know Foundations are pretty dull to look at.
X4 stations, well dun, good work.
X4 Ships, Dull, and not that many of them. Most are duplicates !!
Not getting into the tec fps, engines, Thats all evolutionary and gets better anyways.
My wish is for the ambiance, the magnitude, the spectacular feeling of wonderment. X3 Reunion had it, but the game was xxxx. X3AP had it.
X4 is as said a good concrete foundation, just waiting for the new bridge to be built onto it.

Come on Egosoft, You have dun the hard work, now give us the bells, whistles, and the rest of the game we have paid for.

[Max Bain]

/snipsnipity

An engine is the foundation of a game. When you compare games... you compare their engines as well. This is why you cannot compare an FPS to an RTS for example. The engines work differently in every possible capacity and have different performance metrics on what is and is not possible.

The audacity to suggest that visuals and control areas are ALL a game is composed of is just insane. It's like saying your car is only judged on its interior and the quality of the glass. Your problem is you are judging a bus and a sports car in the same class of vehicle and you really don't even fathom that there is a difference at all.

Yes, I can categorically say the engines are not comparable. The features and mechanics alone tell me they ripped up and redid entire parts of the base. Square peg and round hole syndrome are easy to see even with good old mark1 eyeballs. Hell the fact that the EXE went up damn near 8 megs might be a clue.

If you can not compare two games with different engines then I am sorry for you. Every game magazin, every steam user and I guess over 90% here in the forum can do this. Every FPS uses a different game engine (cryengine, unreal engine, unity, ... many more) and each game has a slightly different physics engine and still they can be compared very well. I dont understand what your problem is here, especially if the game is another X game made by the same company. It sounds like a weak excuse to me just because XR just is way more impressive when it comes to graphics. Btw the engine of X3 what you have compared to X4 with is way more different to X4 than the engine of XR.

The engine of a game is making the results of an internal algorithm and we are comparing the results here because that is what matters and what we can see. We simply can not compare the engines because we dont know the details.

[Nafensoriel]

/snipsnipity

An engine is the foundation of a game. When you compare games... you compare their engines as well. This is why you cannot compare an FPS to an RTS for example. The engines work differently in every possible capacity and have different performance metrics on what is and is not possible.

The audacity to suggest that visuals and control areas are ALL a game is composed of is just insane. It's like saying your car is only judged on its interior and the quality of the glass. Your problem is you are judging a bus and a sports car in the same class of vehicle and you really don't even fathom that there is a difference at all.

Yes, I can categorically say the engines are not comparable. The features and mechanics alone tell me they ripped up and redid entire parts of the base. Square peg and round hole syndrome are easy to see even with good old mark1 eyeballs. Hell the fact that the EXE went up damn near 8 megs might be a clue.

If you can not compare two games with different engines then I am sorry for you. Every game magazin, every steam user and I guess over 90% here in the forum can do this. Every FPS uses a different game engine (cryengine, unreal engine, unity, ... many more) and each game has a slightly different physics engine and still they can be compared very well. I dont understand what your problem is here, especially if the game is another X game made by the same company. It sounds like a weak excuse to me just because XR just is way more impressive when it comes to graphics. Btw the engine of X3 what you have compared to X4 with is way more different to X4 than the engine of XR.

The engine of a game is making the results of an internal algorithm and we are comparing the results here because that is what matters and what we can see. We simply can not compare the engines because we dont know the details.

Did I say you cannot compare engines? I said you cannot compare different classes of engines.
IE if I want to I can compare frostbite to UE4 very easily. I can compare REDengine to Creation Engine. I can easily compare HERO to WC3ME. What I cannot do is compare those pairs against anything other than a like engine. If I compare red alert to call of duty you rapidly run into issues. The games entire scope and designs are different. Their performance budgets are different. Their target audiences are different and their expectations are certainly different.

Really the fact that you can't grasp this concept really limits any future discussion on the subject. It's a foundation issue. And no the average steam user is an idiot by nature that they really don't know what they are talking about. So are many many game magazine journalists(and youtube stars).

Hell, I can even give you a recent example. Fallout 76. When it released everyone and their brother suddenly knew all problems would have been SOLVED! and the game would have perfect had Bethesda just used UE4. After all Creation engine is so OLD isn't it? It's from the 90s! Trouble is UE and CE are the same age. The people complaining about CE were complaining about ART ASSETS like they were a game engine. Art does not equal an engine. Engine powers art.
Just for a note.. UE4 cant power a fallout world. It's physically impossible for that engine to replicate the screen space of CE even to 80% and be playable. Steam users know better though right? Facts just get in the way of mob-driven outrage.

The engine of x3 is older. It's also terrible compared to x4. X4 is, visually identifying features, a categoric improvement to the capabilities of the x3 engine. However, they do THE SAME TASK and are THUS COMPARABLE. X:Rebirth, as a game, is not comparable as its scope and focus are different. Its target player audience is different(hence why X3 players were upset at its launch). Comparing these two is impossible on the grounds due to this different focus.

I'm not even going to touch your comment about not knowing internal performance specs and operations somehow making it impossible to compare like engines.. because it's just frankly ignorant.

Just launched X3 AP. To reenforce my memory of the game. Wow, what a beautiful sense of space, the planets look spectacular compared to X4. Accompanied with appropriate brilliant music to add that fear, wonder, dread.
X4 I am sorry to say has lost something, seems bland in comparison.
X3AP sectors discovered, 129. X4, 54 ish!!!
Foundation is appropriate, it’s just that. A good foundation to build on. And as we all know Foundations are pretty dull to look at.
X4 stations, well dun, good work.
X4 Ships, Dull, and not that many of them. Most are duplicates !!
Not getting into the tec fps, engines, Thats all evolutionary and gets better anyways.
My wish is for the ambiance, the magnitude, the spectacular feeling of wonderment. X3 Reunion had it, but the game was xxxx. X3AP had it.
X4 is as said a good concrete foundation, just waiting for the new bridge to be built onto it.

Come on Egosoft, You have dun the hard work, now give us the bells, whistles, and the rest of the game we have paid for.

Ok. Load up X3: Reunion. Since X3TC released 3 years after X:R. If you can snag a 1.0 copy it would be best too. Though have fun getting it to not trainwreck itself without all those bug fixes.

[Alan Phipps]

I'm really struggling to see what all this furious argument about game or game engine comparison has to do with a thread about DLC versus (free) content patches. Let's get back to actually discussing X4 in a reasonable and non-personal manner please.

[RodentofDoom]

Nice rant
Shame about the lack of actual factual content in it though.

As for the whole DLC complaint. Egosoft clearly stated that there would be 2 DLC's before the game officially launched.
They've never hidden that information, why did you think there were ~30+ Inactive Jump Gates littering the various sectors.

They then informed us of the planned FREE version releases with key expected highlights of those FREE updates
Which includes player shipyards .. you know one of the key selling points from pre-release information.

And all you can see is the final sentance .. Split DLC
which again will add new ships, station modules, sectors etc etc etc.


TL/DR
This clearly is not a franchise for you
And I feel you will be much happier supporting Chris Roberts Games with their Star Citizen
Which as everyone knows is the bestest most awesomest spacegame ever.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

The game feels a little "poor" and "shallow" at least compared to x3 TC + AP.

You do realise that X3:TC was essentionally a redux of X3:R with some community content modified and incorporated, and X3:AP was essentially a large DLC/paid-for-Mod for X3:TC.

People in general these days are getting increasingly unrealistic in their expectations with regards to content.

[Perkel]

While i disagree with OP description and issues i think his view is right.
X4 doesn't have huge following on which you can make a bank on DLC.

Egosoft imho first of failed by not launching it in Early Access.
That cost them a lot of reviews which in return cost them base game sales.
Releasing 2.0 as 1.0 would alone remove most of bad press.

From what i see X4 is not as popular as elite so selling DLC isn't really bring huge money truck.
Imho they should focus on delivering best base game there is to make people buy game in first place.
Press coverage looks different when you have "free update adds whole new race to game" vs "paid expansion to buggy game".

Obviously i am not the head of the studio and i don't know what is their business plan but i supported ego buying that x-rebirth crap along with its DLCs in hope "mods will fix this" but that was me huge X3 fan. I can't imagine someone who didn't like base game suddenly will care about paid expansion for said game.

Imho from my point of view and experience in media buzz pr stuff for past 20 years they should cut price to 30$ with 3.0 and focus on free updates to turn around bad opinions and bad reviews.

NMS got slaugtered by reivews and user reviews but it managed to turn around and make shitload of money along the way precisely because of free updates. No one would give a crap about DLCs for broken game.

So slash game price to 30$ but barely ever go like NMS for sale, keep that price up and release free content updates to generate base game sales.

It is a shame really that they didn't consider EA. In that 2 weeks since release they fixed most of critical bugs that would pain completely different picture of reviews. With few months to 3.0 they would have properly polished game and get 8-9 reviews scores sending them huge money bags and a lot of people.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

IMO The ONLY aspect of the X4 release (and current state) that is due genuine earned criticism is the software quality aspect - I am talking about actual bugs, stability, and performance here.

The not enough base content debate happens with most games like X4 - that include Elite Dangerous, the developers of which have really messed up the game with their attempts to appease those whining about lack of feature X or Y.

Where X4 is concerned, the level of base content is fair and reasonable - the OP complains about Mk2 and Mk3 variants of things but there are Mk2 variants in some areas, Mk2 and Mk3 variants in others, plus the 3 different race approaches to kit. Egosoft also have declared that additional free content is on the cards - as well as DLC which some of us have already paid for.

While I do not agree the weapon and ship balance in 1.60 and prior is as bad as some like to claim, Egosoft are going through a rebalance exercise with V2.0.

Yes, X4 was released too early for it's own good but the damage is already done. They are now committed to releasing the paid for DLC that people have already paid for and the included content in said DLC should reflect the price people have paid (and will pay) for it.

They have damaged their reputation for their QA with X4 and recovering from that mistake is the only thing that is likely to save their reputation long term. They should also forget about their X-Online ambitions for X4 IMO.

[Shehriazad]

To bring something constructive into this topic, here an idea I had recently in another thread.


Ships are a big point people talk about in general. So why not ask Egosoft to split it up a little?

Maybe they can add missing ship types to normal patches and then entire faction sets with DLCs.

They are already at least KIND OF doing that.

Resupply ships are coming with 2.5

Once the Split DLC arrives we will also have a Split resupply ship (Makes sense, right?).


Then why not go further than that?

Give the Paranid the missing "Bomber" type and Argon/Teladi receive a Corvette type ship. Once a faction DLC arrives, they have this in their set, too!

Add specialized boarding ships for the base game factions, and then add this to the dlc set.



I think this would be a nice compromise for everyone. Of course Ego-Devs will have to make a few more 3D models then, but good 3D modelers will be able to crank out a few decent models per week and only need longer for very detail rich objects (Like XL ships maybe). And since everything follows the factions' style...I think the more already exists, the easier it would get to make new ships for any given faction as you have more and more base material to work with.

[Thecrippler]

I'm really struggling to see what all this furious argument about game or game engine comparison has to do with a thread about DLC versus (free) content patches. Let's get back to actually discussing X4 in a reasonable and non-personal manner please.

I was about to say the same ting All this comparison x3 x4 make no sense

[Thecrippler]

To bring something constructive into this topic, here an idea I had recently in another thread.


Ships are a big point people talk about in general. So why not ask Egosoft to split it up a little?

Maybe they can add missing ship types to normal patches and then entire faction sets with DLCs.

They are already at least KIND OF doing that.

Resupply ships are coming with 2.5

Once the Split DLC arrives we will also have a Split resupply ship (Makes sense, right?).


Then why not go further than that?

Give the Paranid the missing "Bomber" type and Argon/Teladi receive a Corvette type ship. Once a faction DLC arrives, they have this in their set, too!

Add specialized boarding ships for the base game factions, and then add this to the dlc set.



I think this would be a nice compromise for everyone. Of course Ego-Devs will have to make a few more 3D models then, but good 3D modelers will be able to crank out a few decent models per week and only need longer for very detail rich objects (Like XL ships maybe). And since everything follows the factions' style...I think the more already exists, the easier it would get to make new ships for any given faction as you have more and more base material to work with.

Reseplay ship and split faction is not good enough for 1dlc we need more the that we need Max 2 faction pr dlc 20 30 new ship + experemantal ships for our new ship yard having the same ships as other races is no fun we need ships that other races don't have and then we can compete to other factions with ships

[Shehriazad]

Reseplay ship and split faction is not good enough for 1dlc we need more the that we need Max 2 faction pr dlc 20 30 new ship + experemantal ships for our new ship yard having the same ships as other races is no fun we need ships that other races don't have and then we can compete to other factions with ships

You realize that the Split DLC will likely come with around 20 ships for just ONE faction, right?


Average S Ships per faction: 6
Average M Ships per faction: 6
Average L Ships per faction: 5
Average XL Ships per faction: 2 (I will include resupply and exclude builder as all factions use the same builder)


Along with that there will be new modules and new wares...and a bunch of new sectors.


That is actually quite a lot. Of course this is just calculated guesswork here, but this is what makes the most sense.


So you are getting 20 ships either way. (I dare Egosoft to prove me wrong )

And like I said before, experimental/new ship classes should always be a part of the base game patches.

[Thecrippler]

Reseplay ship and split faction is not good enough for 1dlc we need more the that we need Max 2 faction pr dlc 20 30 new ship + experemantal ships for our new ship yard having the same ships as other races is no fun we need ships that other races don't have and then we can compete to other factions with ships

You realize that the Split DLC will likely come with around 20 ships for just ONE faction, right?


Average S Ships per faction: 6
Average M Ships per faction: 6
Average L Ships per faction: 5
Average XL Ships per faction: 2 (I will include resupply and exclude builder as all factions use the same builder)


Along with that there will be new modules and new wares...and a bunch of new sectors.


That is actually quite a lot. Of course this is just calculated guesswork here, but this is what makes the most sense.


So you are getting 20 ships either way. (I dare Egosoft to prove me wrong )

And like I said before, experimental/new ship classes should always be a part of the base game patches.

I hope you are right I don't want to see same story as other factions for example having 1 carrier 1 destroyer And the rest transporter ships or having a corvette on 1 or frigate

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I'm really struggling to see what all this furious argument about game or game engine comparison has to do with a thread about DLC versus (free) content patches. Let's get back to actually discussing X4 in a reasonable and non-personal manner please.

I was about to say the same ting All this comparison x3 x4 make no sense

The comparison is to do with expectations and provides context for the expectations of those complaining. While I do see the point that being made by those complaining about base level of content, I believe their complaints are unjustified and their point is on the most part invalid.

Content development costs money, and Egosoft is not a charity it is a business and if that business is to continue supporting the product (X4) then it needs to sell stuff so they can continue to exist - that means making and releasing DLC/paid-for-expansions for the current product. The level of content they have released with the base game of X4 is not unreasonable and they are releasing new content (v. Release) for free over (at least) the next few updates - you only need to look at the roadmap they have outlined to see that.

I know some are not happy with the number of sectors and/or the number/variety of ships but the level of variety we do have is not unreasonable given the fact Egosoft have changed the mechanics in general so much that using the "but X3..." or "But X-Rebirth..." argument becomes on the most part invalid. When people talk about X3, they seem to forget that there were 3 products called X3 and tend to use the ones that includes ALOT of community generated content as the yardstick for their expectations.

[Graaf]

Content development costs money, and Egosoft is not a charity it is a business and if that business is to continue supporting the product (X4) then it needs to sell stuff so they can continue to exist - that means making and releasing DLC/paid-for-expansions for the current product. The level of content they have released with the base game of X4 is not unreasonable and they are releasing new content (v. Release) for free over (at least) the next few updates - you only need to look at the roadmap they have outlined to see that.

I know some are not happy with the number of sectors and/or the number/variety of ships but the level of variety we do have is not unreasonable given the fact Egosoft have changed the mechanics in general so much that using the "but X3..." or "But X-Rebirth..." argument becomes on the most part invalid. When people talk about X3, they seem to forget that there were 3 products called X3 and tend to use the ones that includes ALOT of community generated content as the yardstick for their expectations.

But both the Split and the Boron are base X-game content. Why should we pay additional money for that? Sure, they are selling what we want, but we do not want to buy basic content.

Or is the next notification going to be a name change: EAgosoft.

[Cadvan]

Then how about we don't call them split!?
Let's call them splat instead. A new race we met due new connections in gatesystem!?