I don't agree with the devs about universe size

[Phoynix]

They need to add pirate bases far out that produce fighters/mediums and are next to wormholes...

Have the wormholes randomly "jump" across different systems allowing pirates to attack trade routes.
hell you could even have an entire plot line where shipping is being murdered across the Galaxy and the pirates need to be dealt with because they have wormhole controllers...

Then exploring further from the trade lines would actually make sense...
Also weapons... they need new weapons that are really unique to each race and actually make it possible to store them so you can discover "loot" and give pirates unique ships.

Add Xenon "mobile" production yards where the Xenon start multiplying in a system and you need to explore and take them out or they overrun the sector.

The no jump drive and bottleneck systems cause a real wars and econ to fail and exploration to be rather pointless, knowing this they compressed all the stations and stuff down... leaving empty space, then they added cruise drive and highways to further make the game feel small.

I will go back to the loot system... X4 did away with weapons and so the only real "loot" that can be left for the player is ships... even then they could add 1 off ships like a light fighter that has an extra shield or gun etc. X3 for example wasn't defined by loot, but it was defined by a vast amount of interesting weapons and ships that meant you could spend a long time hunting and boarding a capital ship, then further hunting down enough weapons to fill its turrets. This was completely done away with in X4 and was one of the great joys of X3, it can be summed up as "working for it" you dont need to work for anything in X4 and the "surprises" ain't all that worth it, Player HQ could even be included in that.

Universe feels small is the short version, long version is it fills small because all the reasons above and more.

Well, to be completely fair, a station 280000 km out would be screwed. You wouldn't even want your traders to trade with them, taking 2 days or so to reach.
They would have to pay ridiculous prices for the goods. IF there is anything out there it's not worth it. You don't have the means to make anything out of it.

What if said things were the only way to produce superior equipment and ships or advanced capital weaponry? On that note, it'd be nice if we had long distance convoy fleets, although I'm not sure X4 traders understand time investment cost.

[Arghan]

There's significantly more weird stuff to find in the far corners of sectors in X4 than there has ever been in previous X games.

But... no there's nothing game changing out there. That isn't how X games work. If you want random novel things to find, well, there's quite a few of those scattered around and some of them can make you money too. But there's never going to be hidden routes to places or lost sectors because the AI can find those too and you will notice the traffic leading to them.

But if you want weird things to look at, there's quite a few of those in the remote sectors in X4, and there's data vaults to find and collect money from, the occasional rare pirate station to find. If you haven't found any of that then your problem is more likely that you aren't looking far enough.

The only thing they could put there is more empty sectors for the player to find, but if that's what you're unhappy about then, well, I dunno what you want?

I know they are out there. But as far as i know, they are all in initial zoom in of the sector (or very close to it). Please, do correct me if I'm wrong. I hope I am. But this is my point - anything else out there, outside of the initial zoom radius is completely of no consequences, excluding what my miners are doing. Infinite (or close enough that it doesn't matter) resources are the ONLY reason why this feature has even ONE function in game.

This is why IMHO expanding sector visible border/zooming out it, could be deleted without real consequences.

Edit:
Last save I had few scouts on perpetual expanding sectors job. Took 3 and worked them out.
I've learnt that one of "whole red" sector have actually perfect full circle of red, which is limited. And beside that nothing. Empty. Void.
Sure, If I took player ship, probably some ships would be teleported to me thanks to scripts. But my AI scouts? Nope, void.
For the note - I think in two cases I think I've at least doubled radius. I would expect to find less and less the further I go, but still find something. I found nothing.

[Bozz11]

More sectors is nice, but more sectors + more factions is better, Would be nice to have "real" space pirates, sectors with full pirate economy or factions like the YAKI and the Goners etc... it makes the world feel more diverse and we could have some more action..
They say you can play as a pirate, but it's not true, you can't because if you start raiding the other factions you won't be able to build stations or even buy ships and upgrades, the game would be a pain in the ass because there are no real Pirate sectors, not even pirate ships... it's extremely disappointing but at least I hope modders will make some pirate factions and ships...
Right no they are no "real" pirates, just 3 factions and the Xenons with no real economy, the kha'ak don't even count as they are just useless I don't even understand why put them in here, they should just get rid of the kha'aks as tehy give them 0 love. its just so that people don't complain that they are no kha'aks in x4 ...

[Ghalador]

Well, to be completely fair, a station 280000 km out would be screwed. You wouldn't even want your traders to trade with them, taking 2 days or so to reach.
They would have to pay ridiculous prices for the goods. IF there is anything out there it's not worth it. You don't have the means to make anything out of it.

What if said things were the only way to produce superior equipment and ships or advanced capital weaponry? On that note, it'd be nice if we had long distance convoy fleets, although I'm not sure X4 traders understand time investment cost.

Dude this is not even made for you exploring 5000 km out. You won't be able to see the fricking original sector anymore without using a magnifying glass!
I would very much love long range convoys that you have to protect and stuff but ... this ain't I-Wars.

[Teleth]

Well, to be completely fair, a station 280000 km out would be screwed. You wouldn't even want your traders to trade with them, taking 2 days or so to reach.
They would have to pay ridiculous prices for the goods. IF there is anything out there it's not worth it. You don't have the means to make anything out of it.

What if said things were the only way to produce superior equipment and ships or advanced capital weaponry? On that note, it'd be nice if we had long distance convoy fleets, although I'm not sure X4 traders understand time investment cost.

Dude this is not even made for you exploring 5000 km out. You won't be able to see the fricking original sector anymore without using a magnifying glass!
I would very much love long range convoys that you have to protect and stuff but ... this ain't I-Wars.

It's not like they can't add zooming/panning to individual hexes, if it doesn't already exist. Why have expanding sectors at all if it remains basically unused? I'm not saying it has to be absolutely 280,000km out from the center - just that we could have some gameplay mechanics for more distant and interesting longterm play.

[Matterom]

I completely agree with OP. However I am optimistic that in time we'll see plenty of expansion sectors opening up in addition to what the modding community adds to the experience. Ultimately I want to feel like I did in Albien Prelude. I still feel that the highway system should have never been kept in X4 either (just throwing that out there).

Highway/superhighway are the best thing happened to X games....they improve so much the level design. They were implement better in Rebirth. The big ring in X4 is a completly waste of the highway potential.

I don't disagree, But Highways in XRebirth was one of the major complaints so rather than standing by their design they folded and went with how they did it in the expansions, because the vocal people left liked those more for some reason. And while they were alright, i loved how the Superhighway winded around areas of space.

[Bozz11]

Also you could unleash the Xenons in a bigger universe as it would take time for them too really cripple a faction, right now losing 1 systeme would already cripple a faction a lot even more than 1 faction specially if its one of the sectors part of the Ring like Hatvikla, as a lot of ARG, TEL and PAR ships gfo through that systeme.

[Karvat]

For me the biggest universe is still that of X3TC, the Kh'hak had their sectors, each faction had its own, the number of sectors was huge. For me it is not important the size of the single sector, but the quantity of them and their belonging, which adds variety to the game. With this premise I really hoped, and I hope one more day to see more clusters in X4 than sectors in X3. This is the point with the size of the universe.

[Tharrg]

Yes, the X4 universe is much smaller than X3.

The X4 hexes are much the same as the X3 sectors, a similar number of stations and similar time to cross - with travel mode and highways. However with around a quarter the number of such 'sectors'. Plus the 'Great Circular Highway' really makes everything seem smaller, really wish they had not done this.

I actually prefer the X4 hexes individually but think the way the sectors are joined together is preferable in X3. But this should be taken subjectively.

I even prefer the XR universe construction, as there 'Gates' felt much more important.

[SparvieroGed]

I completely agree with OP. However I am optimistic that in time we'll see plenty of expansion sectors opening up in addition to what the modding community adds to the experience. Ultimately I want to feel like I did in Albien Prelude. I still feel that the highway system should have never been kept in X4 either (just throwing that out there).

Highway/superhighway are the best thing happened to X games....they improve so much the level design. They were implement better in Rebirth. The big ring in X4 is a completly waste of the highway potential.

I don't disagree, But Highways in XRebirth was one of the major complaints so rather than standing by their design they folded and went with how they did it in the expansions, because the vocal people left liked those more for some reason. And while they were alright, i loved how the Superhighway winded around areas of space.

Yes...in Home of Light I remember there was already a big ring. In fact I played just few hours in that sector.

[csaba]

The hexes seem to expand out to about a 5000-6000 km radius. Takes forever to scout with NPCs. IF for god's sake they find something they don't mark it so you can only maybe guess something is there cause there is a mineral patch far away, but it's most likely just a bunch of rocks in the middle of nowhere. Wrecks, lockbockes etc don't show up unless you have active radar present so good look finding anything with the explore command. You'd need to watch the map for 24hours in SETA to catch something they fly by.


Takes the player even more to long range scan each part, absolutely impossible for a sane person.

Flown out 10,000 Km following an asteroid field in Nopelios II the map bugged out and showed the ship in a different sector. Haven't met anything but rocks, dust and the teleporting enemies. The asteroid field didn't end there my nerves did.


If they want us to explore the sectors fully they need to give us the tools to do so.

[Axeface]

Flown out 10,000 Km following an asteroid field in Nopelios II the map bugged out and showed the ship in a different sector. Haven't met anything but rocks, dust and the teleporting enemies. The asteroid field didn't end there my nerves did.

I wonder how much damage its doing to the economy, all those ships randomely getting yanked to your position thousands of kilometers out of the sector (Encounters need to be removed).

[csaba]

Flown out 10,000 Km following an asteroid field in Nopelios II the map bugged out and showed the ship in a different sector. Haven't met anything but rocks, dust and the teleporting enemies. The asteroid field didn't end there my nerves did.

I wonder how much damage its doing to the economy, all those ships randomely getting yanked to your position thousands of kilometers out of the sector (Encounters need to be removed).

Yea I do recall some ARG L miners popping up 3000 km out in a different sector. I was wondering why my miners still made money yet noone is at war.

[Killjaeden]

Completely agree with OP - Ive said it repeatedly before: what they did (increasing distances, but adding travel speed modes) is just thinning out the universe to a lower density. This means 2 things - more ships required to fill it with life (which they cant do because performance), and more objects (amount cubically increasing with sector width, which they didnt because performance), required to keep the same visual density as old games. They skipped adding more objects - so there is a whole lot more of nothingness that provides no interesting gameplay whatsoever.

X2 and X3's universe feels cozy. You often see most of what is inside a sector (there are exceptions of course, such as nebulae or the very large sectors) - and this way it never feels like you are alone in home sectors, even if you are at the fringe of that sector. While in large sectors, esp. near borders, you can feel the emptyness. By decreasing object density (by making everything larger and ships faster) you will always feel sort of lonely.

[pref]

It has the same as in X3, vast space, some stations far away near the edge, roids with value.
Plus some anomalies and data vaults - every other sector i take a look around in i keep running into these things. And a scanner to look around in like a 100km radius. And travel mode to not pull out your hair while getting there. And teleport so you don't need to sit through the way back (though why would you come back the same way - if you go another route you just continue the exploration).
Actually each sector is like an X3 one near the centre with some more things to find around.

There could be even more, but saying X3 was bigger in experience is weird for me. I haven't even finished exploring and station count is already higher then in X3, and i have run into more interesting things then X3 had to offer so far.

[CaptainX4]

It has the same as in X3, vast space, some stations far away near the edge, roids with value.
Plus some anomalies and data vaults - every other sector i take a look around in i keep running into these things. And a scanner to look around in like a 100km radius. And travel mode to not pull out your hair while getting there. And teleport so you don't need to sit through the way back (though why would you come back the same way - if you go another route you just continue the exploration).
Actually each sector is like an X3 one near the centre with some more things to find around.

There could be even more, but saying X3 was bigger in experience is weird for me. I haven't even finished exploring and station count is already higher then in X3, and i have run into more interesting things then X3 had to offer so far.

it doesnt matter how big these x4 sectors are nor how many stations they have (and no, station cound is not more than in x3 it was around 230x20 in reunion and a lot lot more in tc and ap) the problem is that in X4 everything is the same. same stations everywhere and just because there is more space between them it doesnt make the game bigger just more tedious.
in X3 every sector had its point, there were core sectors with specific manufacturing and military, there were mining sectors there were hightech production sectors, now they are all and everywhere. the only distinct are the sipyards but even there they all sell the same weapons same shield same engines just in a different hull but even then they are all the same (a few stands out like pulsar or nemesis but otherwise it doesnt matter which you buy) so there is no reason to go anywhere. anyway, what would be the point to go anywhere when you can just teleport there?

I remember, back in x3 when i explored the last split sectors and found the xenon ones I was already an x veteran. we had countless sectors and that means a lot more than having few bigger sectors. i remember when i started x3 i had to go to get scanner to kingdom end, to get jumpdrive it was in home of light, to get good shield it was in helenas fortune, satelite in greater profit flak artilleries rolks fate and so on, you were traveling exploring finding stuff, now you have all and everything on 1 single station, ok 2 stations.
there is nothing, no reason AT ALL to travel around unless you are masochistic and just do it for the sake of doing it. (what i did for a while on the first 2-3 days and got bored, there is no kingdom end with its music and big green stations and ships, there is no home of light there is no dannas choice or rolks fate with its green fog, they were all distinct places, well, actually distinct groups of sectors), you knew if you were in boron space or in split or teladi or paranid, now they all look the same, dont even mention in x3 you saw everything from the end of the system, i jumped in to home of light and i knew where i was heading, i saw the tc hq, in southwest the goner temple, now you cant see ships 5km in front of you because to serve the shine, everything is culled out, now the only way to know where you are is having the map in front of you, not like if you wouldnt play the game from the map anyway as every command only works from there

[shealladh]

The universe is big, and will get bigger. Foundations is just the beginning.

No Mans Sky was bigger, but not better.

I'll stick with the meat in the sectors over time. Happy with the map sizes, just needs to be fleshed out a bit further.

What I ponder is to fill up this space, is what does it need to add, or can add for the fleshing out?

[shealladh]

It has the same as in X3, vast space, some stations far away near the edge, roids with value.
Plus some anomalies and data vaults - every other sector i take a look around in i keep running into these things. And a scanner to look around in like a 100km radius. And travel mode to not pull out your hair while getting there. And teleport so you don't need to sit through the way back (though why would you come back the same way - if you go another route you just continue the exploration).
Actually each sector is like an X3 one near the centre with some more things to find around.

There could be even more, but saying X3 was bigger in experience is weird for me. I haven't even finished exploring and station count is already higher then in X3, and i have run into more interesting things then X3 had to offer so far.

it doesnt matter how big these x4 sectors are nor how many stations they have (and no, station cound is not more than in x3 it was around 230x20 in reunion and a lot lot more in tc and ap) the problem is that in X4 everything is the same. same stations everywhere and just because there is more space between them it doesnt make the game bigger just more tedious.
in X3 every sector had its point, there were core sectors with specific manufacturing and military, there were mining sectors there were hightech production sectors, now they are all and everywhere. the only distinct are the sipyards but even there they all sell the same weapons same shield same engines just in a different hull but even then they are all the same (a few stands out like pulsar or nemesis but otherwise it doesnt matter which you buy) so there is no reason to go anywhere. anyway, what would be the point to go anywhere when you can just teleport there?

I remember, back in x3 when i explored the last split sectors and found the xenon ones I was already an x veteran. we had countless sectors and that means a lot more than having few bigger sectors. i remember when i started x3 i had to go to get scanner to kingdom end, to get jumpdrive it was in home of light, to get good shield it was in helenas fortune, satelite in greater profit flak artilleries rolks fate and so on, you were traveling exploring finding stuff, now you have all and everything on 1 single station, ok 2 stations.
there is nothing, no reason AT ALL to travel around unless you are masochistic and just do it for the sake of doing it. (what i did for a while on the first 2-3 days and got bored, there is no kingdom end with its music and big green stations and ships, there is no home of light there is no dannas choice or rolks fate with its green fog, they were all distinct places, well, actually distinct groups of sectors), you knew if you were in boron space or in split or teladi or paranid, now they all look the same, dont even mention in x3 you saw everything from the end of the system, i jumped in to home of light and i knew where i was heading, i saw the tc hq, in southwest the goner temple, now you cant see ships 5km in front of you because to serve the shine, everything is culled out, now the only way to know where you are is having the map in front of you, not like if you wouldnt play the game from the map anyway as every command only works from there

Loved that feeling, variety was definitely there

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Quantity/Universe Size does not make quality gameplay.

X4 gameplay on the whole is better than the X3 games (there were 3 of them - X3R, X3TC, X3AP) though perhaps not better than X3R+XTM (XTM was one of the best mods ever developed for X3R - did not think as highly of the X3TC/X3AP version of that mod though).

When compared with X2, X4 is roughly on par better in some ways but worse in perhaps others. The X2 and X4 universes are roughly comparable when looking at the number of sectors aspect but the scope of the sectors in X4 is far better.

The significance of sector size with the X games has typically been to do with what can be built in those systems and the size of the sectors has always been a major limitation which X4 has addressed. In X-Rebirth, we were limited to build points and X4 seems to have eliminated that by allowing players to define their build spots and size them to suit with-in certain reasonable limits.

Universe scale is arguably bigger in both X-Rebirth and X4 when compared with the previous X games - add in some expansions and universe mods and things could far exceed any previous X game.

The bigger problem as far as I am concerned is overall software quality which is IMO worse than X-Rebirth.

[pref]

station cound is not more than in x3 it was around 230x20 in reunion and a lot lot more in tc and ap

Thats right, counted now according to x3tc.net there is 1770+ in tc compared to the 400ish i have now i think, memory fails - maybe to time to revisit X3..
Design is way less characteristics and not as diverse that's for sure. And there are few ships, few weapons, much less detail in general in that regard.
But it wasn't a surprise to find another boron station in boron space anyway, it was more about finding remote pirate bases, things you need to get economy going and generally knowing what is out there in case you need it.

I think what you miss is character, more variety in ships and related equipment and there is no denying that part. Not what i would consider part of the exploration mechanics though, but X4 is really shallow in that regard compared to X3.
And true that it kills the reason to explore that much, i could probably pull up a complex that feeds me with everything after visiting a couple sector centres and have all the ships in game if getting the credits for that wasn't an issue.