[POLL] Would you use Steam for Rebirth?

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

If Steam's only purpose was to provide a service, it wouldn't be mandatory. So yes, Steam is very much about DRM and exclusivity. The more software clients we get in the industry, the less choice gamers will have.

Not true.

Steams primary purpose is to be a storefront. The fact that it also provides a whole bunch of OPTIONAL features that publishers/developers can and do elect to make use of doesn't change that one iota. A fact evidenced by the games that are available on Steam without any DRM in place, a situation that would not exist if DRM was Steams only purpose.

Also, how exactly do you figure having more software clients and therefore sources for games equates to less consumer choice?

[Inverness]

The Witcher 2 patching fiasco was totally CDPR's fault for forcing people to redownload a 9GB file.

Only for the Steam users, lol. The GOG and boxed copy users never had a problem

This doesn't contradict what I said.

[slimgrin]

Steam's primary purpose is to be an exclusive storefront for games whenever they can. You want Skyrim? Only one place to get it. And I'm not going to parse the DRM issue - a mandatory client that requires your game to phone home periodically is DRM. Plain and simple.

I think what people want is the choice to buy the game from somewhere other than Steam. Ideally, Ego could go with Steam and reap all perceived benefits, but still allow players the option of Amazon, GOG, GMG, etc.

[Inverness]

Steam's primary purpose is to be an exclusive storefront for games whenever they can. You want Skyrim? Only one place to get it. And I'm not going to parse the DRM issue - a mandatory client that requires your game to phone home periodically is DRM. Plain and simple.

Actually, Steam's offline mode will work indefinitely. You only need to login once to setup your game then you can stay in offline mode forever. Of course you will need to go online again if you want to be able to get updates.

Also, it seems to be you're arguing more against the concept of DRM than Steam itself. This seems to be a common thing where people attach the idea of Steam to DRM then proceed to bash DRM instead of comparing the pros and cons of Steam vs other services or DRM.

[TTD]

ok,ok...

So what would you non-Steamers say if Egosoft and it's publishers started their own server for downloading entire games , with similar mechanisms installed that are in Steam?

[cw8]

ok,ok...

So what would you non-Steamers say if Egosoft and it's publishers started their own server for downloading entire games , with similar mechanisms installed that are in Steam?

If it's a compulsory client, it's still the same or maybe worse. Unless you only download the game through the client and be able to copy the gamefiles out and play on any computer.

[Slashman]

ok,ok...

So what would you non-Steamers say if Egosoft and it's publishers started their own server for downloading entire games , with similar mechanisms installed that are in Steam?

That was brought up much earlier in the discussion. Not sure how many iterations back.

Several people made the argument that they trust Egosoft but not Steam so it would be fine to get the game and updates from them.

Ironically, Steams resources are several orders of magnitude above Egosoft, so I think that it's likely that Steam would be around for much longer than Egosoft given Valve is both a developer and store.

In the end it all comes down to resources and publisher and developer choices.

Some games are perfectly fine launching on all platforms with DRM free versions. There are other games that I wonder how exactly a developer would even deal with that.

If your're making a relatively 'simple' game where you're less likely to do a frequent and large post-release updates, then launching everywhere is very viable option. The more complex your game gets and the more post-release support it is likely to need, the more attractive a unified updating solution is. Especially when that solution doesn't pass bandwidth costs to you and more or less ensures that everyone is running the latest version of your game.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

You want Skyrim? Only one place to get it.

A decision made by solely by Bethesda.

[slimgrin]

ok,ok...

So what would you non-Steamers say if Egosoft and it's publishers started their own server for downloading entire games , with similar mechanisms installed that are in Steam?

They don't need to. Make it available on all distributors and host mods on Nexus or any other site.

[GCU Grey Area]

Actually, Steam's offline mode will work indefinitely. You only need to login once to setup your game then you can stay in offline mode forever. Of course you will need to go online again if you want to be able to get updates.

Really wish it worked that way, unfortunately it doesn't. Keep my games machine in offline mode as much as possible, 99% of the time it's not even connected to the internet. Prefer to keep that machine offline as much as possible to avoid Steam's auto-updater which has caused me no end of problems.

However, every couple of weeks or so Steam pops up a message to say it can't launch a game because it's forgotten my login details & needs to connect to the Steam server. This is, of course, a bit of a lie from Steam - it connects automatically as soon as I plug in the network cable without any need for me to re-enter user name or password, so it clearly hasn't forgotten them.

Interestingly, Steam's competitors e.g. Origin & the other one (forget the name, had to install it for Far Cry 3) have been FAR less troublesome in this regard - they just lurk in the background & never hassle me about plugging in the network cable so they can talk to the internet. May be heresy for Steam enthusiasts but, if boxed copies of XR have to be linked to an online distributor for updates, think I'd prefer they were using one of the others. Steam has caused me far more problems than all of the rest combined.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

...

They don't need to. Make it available on all distributors and host mods on Nexus or any other site.

Utilising Steam Workshop for mods does not preclude the use of other mod management sites and/or mechanisms. Skyrim is supported by the Nexus Mod Manager for instance as well as having native support for Steam Workshop.

I could mention other counter arguments as well but they have all been said many times over already both in this thread and elsewhere (and not just by me). Despite this, the same arguments against Steam get raised time and time again, with neither side conceding ground to the other.

[slimgrin]

Actually, Steam's offline mode will work indefinitely. You only need to login once to setup your game then you can stay in offline mode forever. Of course you will need to go online again if you want to be able to get updates.

Really wish it worked that way, unfortunately it doesn't. Keep my games machine in offline mode as much as possible, 99% of the time it's not even connected to the internet. Prefer to keep that machine offline as much as possible to avoid Steam's auto-updater which has caused me no end of problems.

However, every couple of weeks or so Steam pops up a message to say it can't launch a game because it's forgotten my login details & needs to connect to the Steam server. This is, of course, a bit of a lie from Steam - it connects automatically as soon as I plug in the network cable without any need for me to re-enter user name or password, so it clearly hasn't forgotten them.

Interestingly, Steam's competitors e.g. Origin & the other one (forget the name, had to install it for Far Cry 3) have been FAR less troublesome in this regard - they just lurk in the background & never hassle me about plugging in the network cable so they can talk to the internet. May be heresy for Steam enthusiasts but, if boxed copies of XR have to be linked to an online distributor for updates, think I'd prefer they were using one of the others. Steam has caused me far more problems than all of the rest combined.

I've experienced these exact same issues with Steam as well, or simply not letting me play when my internet suddenly went down. If I wasn't in offline mode already, no connection meant no games. Also, the auto updater was a major headache for TW2 players, as sometimes devs release incompatible patches and its best not to install them right away. But I'm sure a game as huge and complex as X: Rebirth won't have that problem.. Hopefully Ego's Marriage to Steam will be short lived and we won't have to jump through hoops just to play a game we have leased from Steam...er, own.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

...

No-one has claimed Steam was perfect, but the off-line mode is only one feature which is known to be problematic and it is one that could still be improved.

Unplanned internet outages are a pain but the occurrence of such events are probably not frequent enough (or long enough) in the main to justify abandoning Steam based on this current deficiency.

As it stands, the other similar platforms such as Origin, uPlay, and GFWL do not appear to be anywhere as near advanced in other areas such as support for end-user mods.

Not only that, but the so-called marriage to Steam is not necessarily a choice Egosoft have much of a say in (depends on the agreements with their publishers - e.g. Deepsilver)

[Inverness]

Actually, Steam's offline mode will work indefinitely. You only need to login once to setup your game then you can stay in offline mode forever. Of course you will need to go online again if you want to be able to get updates.

Really wish it worked that way, unfortunately it doesn't. Keep my games machine in offline mode as much as possible, 99% of the time it's not even connected to the internet. Prefer to keep that machine offline as much as possible to avoid Steam's auto-updater which has caused me no end of problems.

However, every couple of weeks or so Steam pops up a message to say it can't launch a game because it's forgotten my login details & needs to connect to the Steam server. This is, of course, a bit of a lie from Steam - it connects automatically as soon as I plug in the network cable without any need for me to re-enter user name or password, so it clearly hasn't forgotten them.

Valve says that offline mode is designed to be indefinite but admits that there can be bugs since the offline mode consist of many different parts.

If you don't report bugs like this they won't get fixed.

[Ebany]

That said, those stats just re-enforce my point. Faced with Steam, most people chose to by from other distributors or bought a physical copy because it doesn't require Steam to activate. In fact, the physical copy had DRM protection, only the GoG copy came DRM-Free. That's why I bought a physical and a GoG copy. Figures show it, most of us tried to avoid Steam!

Boxed copy of TW2 had its DRM removed shortly. And you could redeem the boxed key for a backup GOG version. I got the GOG version first then bought the boxed for the physical goodies. So I too have 2 copies.

Same, thought I bought the CE Boxed version first and later bought 2x copies of the GoG version.

[Ebany]

The purpose of Steam isn't to be DRM. It's a useful service for both players and developers.

I have tried arguing this point before; However, many people who are anti-Steam do not accept it as a valid argument.

I certainly appreciate the position of Ebany but without knowing the exact details of the overcharging incident it is difficult to say if Ebany's view point is correct. Certainly, if it is correct then it would be pursuable in a small claims court if Ebany was so inclined.

I don't believe I'm correct as such, but I won't change my opinion no matter how good the argument. It was no "one" thing which makes me dislike Steam, its an accumulation of events over an extended period of time.

e.g. The Witcher 2 (just before its release) had its viewer rating changed and Steam suddenly decided they wouldn't release the "Mature" version so took it off their store site. They refused to give refunds to people who pre-purchased (changing their copies to the "child-safe" version) until enough people complained and threaten to get the Australian Consumer Affairs people involved.

e.g. Harebrained Studio's just launched their Shadowrun Returns game. This was my rpg back in the 80's & 90's so I helped out at Kickstarter. There is a forum full of Steam customers who couldn't download it, or received corrupted copies, Steam was still looking into it last I checked .... after I had completed the game.

Steam is like religion, for some its bought joy, inner peace and beauty. For the others it's bought horror, bloodshed and pain.

I am a simple creature but will not forgive Steam their authoritarian attitude. Some companies (Steam) believe they're to big to fail so start treating their customers like an Automated Cash Dispenser, there purely for the financial gain of Steam.

Now Steam is just the playground for others of a like mind, they're ushering in the DLC era, no longer content to make money off a product sale (and an expansion every year) now we have DLC crap flooding the market in an attempt to siphon more money out of consumers. Don't get me wrong, making money is great and all but like eating a person must know when enough is enough.

Again, I understand why a development would use Steam to market their product, I just don't understand why a developer would ONLY use Steam.

Oh, and Steam can ban/cancel you account at any-time so losing access to all your games wont just happen if Steam folds or if another company buys them out. Steam classifies themselves as Social Networking, much like Facebook.

[Ebany]

The purpose of Steam isn't to be DRM. It's a useful service for both players and developers.

I have tried arguing this point before; However, many people who are anti-Steam do not accept it as a valid argument.

Compulsory clients are DRM, don't care if it's Steam, Origin. Uplay or GFWL. There are other useful services and stores, quite a number of them. Sell the game through Steam all you want, just provide the alternatives to buy the game outside of Steam, that's the keyword we're looking for, alternatives. Wasteland 2 is gonna be on almost every store, GOG, Steam, Desura, hell even Origin, and nobody and no backer on the forums is complaining about only getting the game on Steam.

+1

[Chris0132]

Complaining that a digital distribution platform doesn't work very well without an internet connection is like complaining that a cellular phone doesn't work very well without a network.

THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR...

[BDK]

The purpose of Steam isn't to be DRM.

I'm sorry but LOL.

[Ebany]

ok,ok...

So what would you non-Steamers say if Egosoft and it's publishers started their own server for downloading entire games , with similar mechanisms installed that are in Steam?

Fuk YEAH!!!!!!!!!! Sign me up.